He recently withdrew from the discussions, but the Ukraine war hasn’t left former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer indifferent either. In an interview, he talks about Putin’s war goals, the new strength of the West and the alleged mistakes in NATO’s eastward expansion.
For Joschka Fischer, “determination plus caution” is the formula for dealing with Russian President Vladimir Putin. In an interview conducted by the DPA, the 73-year-old former Foreign Minister analyzed Putin’s motives and war goals, the challenge for the West, and the role of the EU and China’s position.The former Green Party politician and vice chancellor also takes a position on the controversial question of whether the West has cheated Russia with NATO’s eastward expansion.
Mr. Fischer, what are Putin’s war goals? Does he “only” want Crimea and the two regions of Luhansk and Donetsk in the east? Or does he want all of Ukraine?
He wants all of Ukraine because, in his view of the world, that is the prerequisite for regaining Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe. And that, in turn, is the prerequisite for further ambitions. That hasn’t changed, I would think. We don’t know how things will develop further. We can only hope for the best for Ukraine.
So you’re saying: he wants all of Ukraine because he wants to restore some kind of Greater Russian Empire?
For him, the humiliation caused by the dissolution of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. I think you have to take him seriously. That is the core of his worldview. Revising this is the task he has set himself. Russia is a revisionist power that wants to change the status quo, as it has been developing since the late 1990s, in its favor, and this includes the use of military force and aggression.
Fischer: “We should be determined, but also cautious at the same time”
How should the West deal with this?
I think it would be wise to look at the reality: Russia is one of the very big nuclear powers. This means that we should be determined on the one hand, but also cautious on the other. In this respect, I think NATO’s approach is very correct to say: Not an inch of NATO territory, but we will not seek a direct military confrontation on Ukrainian soil.
Now the war is apparently not going the way Putin had imagined.
The Ukrainians are fighting heroically for their country, something Putin didn’t expect. What he also didn’t reckon with is the determination of the West. One of the most difficult issues to resolve in the old EU was the refugee issue. Today, on the other hand, the borders are open and there is a great willingness to accept people, regardless of whether they are EU members or not. The Europeans have understood that it is against us as a whole. And it wasn’t just the political elite who understood that, it was above all the people who understood it. This is a very important experience! This sense of togetherness must be expanded and used for the future – including the Eastern Europeans.
You mentioned the keyword EU. Is the Ukraine war the big push for European integration?
This is a turning point. The EU will have to develop from a common market to a geopolitical actor. Only: That will require a reform of the head and limbs. The EU in its current form cannot handle that. But the most important obstacle was Germany, for historically understandable reasons. That blockage is now gone, however, making it realistic that this transformation will take place.
“It won’t work without military strength”
Does that mean that the common foreign and security policy is finally becoming a reality? Maybe even European armed forces?
As we can see, it won’t work without military strength. In this respect, the decisions that the Bundestag will make are of crucial importance. The experiences that are now being made are very, very important for the emergence of a new EU. In the Atlantic region, too, a lot will be rearranged. With a stronger Europe, commitment will increase rather than decrease from the other side as well.
Many people worry that the war in Ukraine could degenerate into World War III. How justified is that?
I say determination plus caution. Both the American side and NATO and the EU as well as the German and French governments know that caution has nothing to do with cowardice, but that one is well advised to carefully weigh every step.
Years ago you said that Putin was the opposite of a lunatic. Does this assessment still hold?
I’m not a psychologist. And it’s been many years since I last saw him in person. I dont know.
In any case, it’s crazy that everything now depends on a single person, isn’t it?
That’s the way it is with autocracies. Restoring trust becomes infinitely difficult. Without a democratic revolution it will be almost impossible.
“What we see now is not a cold war”
That means: Is there a new Cold War coming our way?
The Cold War in Europe was characterized by maintaining the status quo. What we are seeing now is not a Cold War. It is the revision of the existing order. Russia has become a revisionist power under Putin.
How do you see China’s role? Do they go through thick and thin with Putin or are they losing patience with him?
The difference between Russia and China is that while both are authoritarian regimes, the Chinese live in the 21st century while Putin has gone into reverse gear. He is more of a late 19th and early 20th century figure. That’s where the crucial difference lies. And that’s why I also think that China will not stick to him in loyalty to the Nibelungen. If you look at Chinese interests, export dependency on the US and Europe, China is not going to play an irresponsible game of chance here. But you have to be careful. I think there is a chance that Sino-West relations will be put on a new footing. But there is also a danger that China will call everything into question with a misunderstood solidarity with Russia. I think the US made that very clear at the meeting in Rome a few days ago.
There is a lot of discussion at the moment about whether the West has broken a promise to Russia with NATO’s eastward expansion. does he have this
Where would we be today without the eastward expansion of NATO? Should one have said to the Poles: We’re sorry! You’re on the wrong side of history and stay that way! The only eastward expansion would then have been German unity. Those who caused the malaise would have been the only beneficiaries! After all, the eastward expansion of NATO did not take place to encircle Russia. You can’t circle a country with eleven time zones. Rather, the eastward expansion of NATO took place because Russia’s neighboring countries did not trust Russia. What’s more, these are European nations that share basic European values.
How is the war going?
Answer: I cannot foresee the end of the war. We will have no choice but to wait.
To person: Joschka Fischer, born in 1948, was active in the student movement and became radicalized there. In 1982 he joined the Greens, and in 1985 he became Minister for the Environment and Energy in Hesse (“sneaker minister”). From 1998 to 2005, Fischer was German Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor. During this time, the decision was made to take part in the NATO mission in the Kosovo war and not to take part in the Iraq war (“I am not convinced”).
Source: Stern
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